Normal reload, quick reload

[Wanksta]

FUCK IT REAL MEN USE .50 DESERET EAGLES!!!!!

[Cl2v2r]

Yeah, because that way when you break your wrist, you can be proud.

'I broke my own wrist by using a ridiculously sized weapon, instead of trying to be accurate!'

[Cogburn]

Originally Posted by abathur

Well, presumably we'd figure out how to not make a complete waste of all ammunition within a few hundred years, which it looks like the storyline is leaning towards. Presumably there wouldn't really even be a problem with...
*thought bubble appears*

Item name: Amorphous ballistics matter (sm/med/lg/xl)
Description: Cases of amorphous ballistics matter to be fed into the weapon's imbedded ballistics crystalization plant. Boxes come in varying sizes, the use of which is determined by the size of the matter acceptance interface. Different weapons may require different amounts of ballistics matter to create projectiles depending on their structure and composition.

From there, a box is a box is a box. If you want to make a grunt weapon hard to scavenge for, give it an interface that is uncommon among infantry weapons. Different factions may have modified their matter interfaces to accept a different size. Could also have several types of general amorphous matter for forming into different projectiles, if there are weapons with projectiles that vary enough that one substance might break any suspension of disbelief. Dont't think I've ever seen a game do it this way, so presumably this would be a functionally equivalent yet "different" way to handle ammo. Weapons could even have the magazine on them, filled by the processing plant. The magazines don't change, you just have to provide more matter to fill it back up as the "reload."

In context of normal/quick reload this would be the equivalent to just sticking the crate into the processing plant and letting the empty/semifull ABMC (amorphous ballistics matter container) fall to the ground when the magazine is full, rather than placing it back in an ammo belt/inventory.

To oversimplify to make sure I understand, it's like refilling a water pistol... The longer you hold it under the faucet the longer you can shoot it. You just expressed it in an elegant way in a sci-fi setting.

Fuck... if that's what it is, that's a winner.

[abathur]

Basically. Though it would probably be prudent to have magazine size limitations to the formed/processed rounds so it's not really "the longer you fill" but has a "full"

In reality I would see the code as trying to "fill to full" when given a container of the matter, and you have the option of dropping the remainder to get back in the fight, or putting what's left back in your bag so you can put it in later. The "not full" circumstance would be when a container in the bag isn't full enough to "fill to full." Though I suppose a variable timed reload based more on what you're smart/stupid enough to put in could work--as long as it is intuitive and not prohibitive to gameplay.

[Cogburn]

I dont think it would be too burdensome... You have two reload keys... "Reload and Drop" and "Reload and Retain". Retention takes more time than dropping. You simply hold your finger down on the appropriate button and the weapon fills to your satisfaction until you release the button.

[Aftiel]

I would imagine making Reload&Drop the easier key would make sense as well (for default keymapping) so like 'R'

and shift+R for Reload&Retain. Not really pertinent now but I still want to throw it out while I think about it.

[Zane]

Originally Posted by rav3n

[abathur]

Perhaps a better way would be to have a single reload that defaults to the long reload with an interrupt key that, if pressed before you detatch the amorphous ballistics matter container from the gun, drops it instead of storing it. I think coming up with multiple keys for basic and in fact core/necessary functionality is an un-necessary complication. With this you could always have a single reload bind. Add in multiple actions on a button and you could do something like bind fire to interrupt (since you can't use fire while reloading) reload, fire before you release the container if you need to "interrupt" the reload.

I guess I won't bitch too much about the user-controlled variable-reload but I think as a default it may be an over-complication. Perhaps if you simply click reload, full reload, if you hold reload you fill until you release. In the end I would suggest we remain open to dropping the variable length refill (and ensure that doing so in the code is easy) in the event that it is more of a hindrance to picking up the game than a unique feature.

[Kyraal]

Originally Posted by abathur

[..] In the end I would suggest we remain open to dropping the variable length refill (and ensure that doing so in the code is easy) in the event that it is more of a hindrance to picking up the game than a unique feature.

Yes, of course. Nothing will ever be set in stone until it's gone through an iterative process of testing to show it actually works. Same goes for every piece of word written on these forums :)

[Kyraal]

Speaking of which, I was supposed to have tried to make a micro-HL2 mod, testing this, but I simply haven't found the time.

[MadCat360]

How about:

E = slow reload, retain ammo
R = Fast reload, drop ammo

There.

Now, about .45 vs 9mm:

9mm isn't a bad bullet (it's about the size of 7.62), it's just because it's a pistol round. It has less powder, so = less velocity. 5.56 is a much smaller round, but it travels at a higher velocity than 9mm and such delivers more joules of force on impact.

Now, the reason for .45 and 9mm is simple: shooter preference. 9mm is easier to control, is lighter and it has a larger capacity, so the shooter is able to put more rounds in his target to take it down. 9mm essentially "pushes" the target down.

The .45 on the other hand, is a power hitting round. I've seen guys put straight on the concrete from one .45 to the arm. The only drawback is, more kickback, is heavier and it's more difficult to put out volume of fire with accuracy. .45 basically "knocks" the target down.

So, it's totally different styles and for different situations. If I was going to be running alot and doing recon, and encountering only semi-hostile targets, I would take an M9 or Glock. If I was gonna be on guard duty or going into hot combat, I'd take a Para Ordinance or Kimber Custom.

Now, there are a few variations to these scenarios, if I was going to be in hot combat but up close in CQB, I'd take a Glock because I can draw that faster (.68 seconds to drop my main and get the weapon clear of the holster is my record). But if I was on a recon mission in the jungle, I'd take a Kimber to get through the foliage.

But, real facts aside, I think we should make the pistols in game .45, just because it seems more "macho". (And add the fact that I don't think that 9mm could punch through the type of armour we're talking about)

[Cogburn]

Calibre is really inconsequential as to how the game behaves... it's really all in what we decide to call it.

PS uses 10mm... why? who knows

[UGoBoy]

Considering decisions made about ammo and it's workings in Versus, is this discussion entirely relevant now?

I think it could be...but the application would end up being completely different across empires.

Vachir: Using Brolli tubes to fill built-in tanks on the weapons. Brolli tubes are pressed against the gun to refill. A "slow" reload would replace the half-used tube in their vest...a "fast" one would drop the tube?

Remnant: Fairly straightforward.

Sodacans: Are their coolant tanks attached or not? I'd lean towards them being attached, just so it wouldn't be exactly like Vachir reloads. Since Sodality guns never really run out of ammo, would there be a need for "fast and slow" reloads anyways, since you'd probably just either wait for your gun to cool naturally, or dump the last of the coolant into it, then replace the tank entirely?

[Aftiel]

Originally Posted by Cogburn

Calibre is really inconsequential as to how the game behaves... it's really all in what we decide to call it.

PS uses 10mm... why? who knows

PS actually uses 9mm. But yeah it's fairly irrelevant to the discussion at this point I think. Esp. with the spooge weapons, caseless systems, and future armour stuff making caliber/power/etc somewhat less defined.

[Cogburn]

Originally Posted by UGoBoy

Vachir: Using Brolli tubes to fill built-in tanks on the weapons. Brolli tubes are pressed against the gun to refill. A "slow" reload would replace the half-used tube in their vest...a "fast" one would drop the tube?

Fast reload is just tapping the tube for a second or two to give you a little juice. A slow reload is reloading the weapon completely.

Originally Posted by UGoBoy

Sodacans: Are their coolant tanks attached or not? I'd lean towards them being attached, just so it wouldn't be exactly like Vachir reloads. Since Sodality guns never really run out of ammo, would there be a need for "fast and slow" reloads anyways, since you'd probably just either wait for your gun to cool naturally, or dump the last of the coolant into it, then replace the tank entirely?

I'm kinda leaning towards this myself. A certain amount of heat is generated per shot, and coolant is attached and expended per shot to counter it. The weapon still heats up, but at a rate similar to other weapons and the cooldown is faster. Coolant is not expended unless the trigger is pulled. The accelerated cooling rate is just a function of the weapon with coolant attched. Once the coolant runs out you have enough shots for a "hail mary" before you just overheat the gun and explode or you are mowed down. Weapons without coolant cool so slow I'm thinking it may take a full minute from maximum temperature.

[Aftiel]

I think you need to have the lack of coolant = instant shutdown. If not then how unbalanced will their psuedo-infinite ammo be? The coolant should be good for X number of shots then you need to put more in or it will be overpowered IMO. Unless I'm reading it all wrong.

[abathur]

Possible environmental advantage and excuse to have a rudimentary temperature system based on climate, continent, altitude and weather patterns? (snow=advantage, temperate=average, desert=disadvantage.) Though really the gun would generate MOST of the heat and those dis/advantages would be minimal.

[GreatMazinkaiser]

Originally Posted by abathur

Possible environmental advantage and excuse to have a rudimentary temperature system based on climate, continent, altitude and weather patterns? (snow=advantage, temperate=average, desert=disadvantage.) Though really the gun would generate MOST of the heat and those dis/advantages would be minimal.

You got my vote. Very fluffy anc characterful.

[UGoBoy]

Originally Posted by Aftiel

I think you need to have the lack of coolant = instant shutdown. If not then how unbalanced will their psuedo-infinite ammo be? The coolant should be good for X number of shots then you need to put more in or it will be overpowered IMO. Unless I'm reading it all wrong.

Shouldn't be too overpowered. In another thread, it was pointed out that an overheated gun had to be cooled down to a certain minimum before it could even fire again. With the rate that Cog's talking about overheated guns cooling down at, you'd be just as likely to be able to kill them with a large rock. With careful management, you might be able to squeeze out an extra burst or so, but then you run the risk of injuring yourself with the red-hot weapon...or maybe it even exploding in your face.

[Cogburn]

Any lengths of time or damage or whatnot discussed in these phases of design are purely for example purposes.

They are meant to illustrate the INTENT of the behavior. How it will actually end up in game is a matter for long hours in a spreadsheet crunching the numbers to make sure that everything is roughly equal over the same amount of time.

Remember, the goal of empire-specific weaponry is to dictate basic tactics and playstyle for the characters that are members of each empire. We have added additional game mechanics to the behaviors of empire specific weapons in order to make the balancing of "apples and oranges" easier.

The Remnant have powerfull weapons but reload like a BF2 weapon.... you change the clip and whatever was left in the clip is gone.

The Vachir have a heat problem... Too much spam and the weapons will shutdown until they cool off.

The Poptops have "unlimited" ammunition, but their weapons are heat intensive and prone to explode if mishandled.

[Stream|ine]

I have a HK usp40 i love it. I want a socom.45 but i can't justify spending the money on it.

So anyway the way i reload faster myself is don't fire the last round replace teh clip and you dont have to rechamber because you still have the last round from the last clip. once the clip is replaced you can just shoot.

So for animations you just remove the rechamber part and walla faster reload with no lost ammo. That's if you even have that much detail in the animations.

[luthor]

Originally Posted by Cogburn

The Poptops have "unlimited" ammunition, but their weapons are heat intensive and prone to explode if mishandled.

Explode?? like, would it hurt the user and people around him?