Leadership, logistics and mad dog killers....

[Chiron]

If you want to make a game that appeals to a larger audiance I think we should think along the lines of

Leadership
Logistics
Mad Dog Killers

Or Leaders, support, grunts.

Some people like being each and / or switch between the playstyles.

The trick is to give them a symbiotic relationship.

Example: If a grunt is solo'ing then he does not get the "trickle down" benefits of having a squad leader. Such as improved communication (distance), heads up radar for friend or foe, and no support members of a squad seeing he needs ammo, health or armor repair. On the flip side, the leader needs a squad to improve his Command experience skill set.

In PS right now, soloside with BR 23 CR 5 grunts are more like swiss army knives. Able to play on their own with no help.

Leaders are going to have to have a large uphill climb and progress from Squad - Platoon (2 squads) - Commander (2 platoons) - Field Marshal (Continental access to all platoons) Each level gives additional abilities which are not offensive except for the intelligence the contain.

Logistics will have access to deployables (vehicles which transform into "deployed" objects. ) Repair vehicles with arming stations and first aid stations. They also have the ability to repair or apply first aid. Advanced levels could repair a destroyed vehicle or player character within a period of time.

Grunts still have to do the work but their lifespans will be longer and more kill happy in a squad.

Example: Logistics deploys a cloaked command vehicle for a squad leader who enters it and gets some enemy locations from a spy drone which is called by the command vehicle. Two logistics squad members deploy one artilery vehicle each. Then they go about other logistics while 2 grunts man the artilery. The commander gets a waypoint for an enemy command vehicle which he then passes as elevation data (flail'like) to the artilery. Meanwhile a logistics squaddie deploys a heavy machine gun nest to fend off incoming enemy troopers looking to ice the artilery. Then an enemy tank sneaks up behind the artilery and blows em to hell.
The squad commander calls for a logistics to try and repair the artiliery and some air support to hunt down the tank.

[GreatMazinkaiser]

I believe command structure and that sort of thing has largely been hammered out, and that which hasn't really can't be worked on at this point (there's no way to test it)...

That being said, while your suggestion isn't terrible, it'd make the game way too complicated. That and there's a point where all interdependence between unit/soldier types gets in the way of having fun.

[Mug]

Example: Logistics deploys a cloaked command vehicle for a squad leader who enters it and gets some enemy locations from a spy drone which is called by the command vehicle. Two logistics squad members deploy one artilery vehicle each. Then they go about other logistics while 2 grunts man the artilery. The commander gets a waypoint for an enemy command vehicle which he then passes as elevation data (flail'like) to the artilery. Meanwhile a logistics squaddie deploys a heavy machine gun nest to fend off incoming enemy troopers looking to ice the artilery. Then an enemy tank sneaks up behind the artilery and blows em to hell.
The squad commander calls for a logistics to try and repair the artiliery and some air support to hunt down the tank.
I think stuff like this isn't a bad idea. While this example sounds pretty complicated, and would be pretty far from what would actually happen in game, I like the premise. I like the idea of giving commanders the ability to make a part of the map visible to the entire empire for a short amount of time. And giving commanders some way to target artillery isn't a bad idea (as long as the vehicle pads have some fucking cover, and artillery is not instagib with massive splash). But I'm sure all this stuff has already been thought over.

[Chiron]

I believe command structure and that sort of thing has largely been hammered out, and that which hasn't really can't be worked on at this point (there's no way to test it)...

That being said, while your suggestion isn't terrible, it'd make the game way too complicated.* That and there's a point where all interdependence between unit/soldier types gets in the way of having fun.


You would be surprised at the co-operation you can sometimes get. The EVS Outfit KOS, (Rabid Poodle Icon) did a "Wailing Flailers" outfit night on PS. Thought it was going to be so so then we got our groove on with 5 flails, 4 starfires, and several Mags and a couple of AV BFR's. We had some ninjas running naked out in the field and they lazed some good targets. Once we opened up, we had a swarm of skeeters and reavers attack, they got whomped by the starfires and mags, then some FV BFR's came looking for an easy kill and the mag, flail, AV BFR's pwned them.

THEN the hate tells started. :-X

Not to say that individuals will not have power or make a difference but the game needs to give incremental advantages for organization. You can still solo and have fun, but to get every advantage you should stress co-op play.

[GreatMazinkaiser]

Artillery instagib isn't really a bad thing, it makes sense really...

The problems come from things like the Flail which can propel a ginormous warhead great distances and even touching the AoE of it would kill just about anything in the game (excepting maybe BFRs).

If it was necessary for the actual shell (assuming it's smaller than the AoE) to land on light infantry for instagib, that's not so bad, and really makes sense, especially considering getting such hits would be rather rare unless you were firing into tightly clustered infantry.

[Chiron]

Artillery instagib isn't really a bad thing, it makes sense really...

The problems come from things like the Flail which can propel a ginormous warhead great distances and even touching the AoE of it would kill just about anything in the game (excepting maybe BFRs).*

If it was necessary for the actual shell (assuming it's smaller than the AoE) to land on light infantry for instagib, that's not so bad, and really makes sense, especially considering getting such hits would be rather rare unless you were firing into tightly clustered infantry.


In which case a choice of AI or AV shells would make sense. More importantly an AV shell landing within 10 m of a grunt would not kill. An AI shell would explode overhead spraying frag, but not bother a tank too much. Of course to make it a "litttle" like RL, artilery could not hit squat unless it had directed fire. From a commander or from a squad member laying down a laser designator. One thing which would have to be a given is artilery is long distance directed fire support. If a tank or RPG finds you, well your Frelled.

[Cogburn]

CAR!

Two things...

First off... The idea of allowing MORE squad members based on Command rank is .... interesting.* If you scaled the CEP system so that it generated no more CP than a 10 man squad I think you'd be on to something.

2nd: Figure some additional mechanics into your discussion of artillery.*
1) A nearby explosion will cause a "haze" effect similar to BF2
2) Explosions in the immediate vicinity will "throw" players a certain distance based on the explosive force of the warhead and the player's distance to it (ala FarCry).* Rag-doll animations FTW

Game on.

[abathur]

Always wanted to see ragdoll in PS... though the next pertinent question would be: Would rag-doll be designed purely as aesthetic, or would we allow the "usefulness" factor of ragdoll as in other games (re: rocket/conc jumping etc.)

[Cogburn]

Asthetic. I mean.... I suppose you could fire a rocket at your feet so it would throw you, but you're gonna be pretty screwed up when you land.

The animations are not real-time, they are predesigned animations that are triggered when a character is "thrown". It's more for effect on the client end than anything else... A tank round lands nearby and does moderate damage to you. It throws you 10m in the air and when you land you are slightly "blacked out" by the explosion, further adding to the effect of disorientation.

[Kyraal]

Just a bit of a question which might sound a bit odd, considering this is definitely not my area of expertise.

Let's say we use ragdoll. It's going to be calculated completely clientside, right? So only a 'core' co-ordinate of the body is going to remain constant across all clients? If so.. hmm.. actually, my train of thought de-railed on me there :P

[NasyVealisanoob]

In PS right now, soloside with BR 23 CR 5 grunts are more like swiss army knives. Able to play on their own with no help.




Dont nerf the ability to solo just because you think people should be in a squad. Fact is that 3 skilled br23 swiss army knives on TS are far more effective then 3 skilled br23's soloing BECAUSE they are useing teamwork......not becuase the game penalizes people for not being in a squad.

Hell if you give someone a gun its possible to solo. I do it all the time in BF2 and can solo as most of the classes depending on the map.

Alot of the time I rather not play then be forced to work in a squad of noobs who I dont know and am not on voice coms with. Unless you are in a very large active outfit you are gonna be online at times when there really isnt an organized squad going. You should be able to solo if you want and still be effective. By "solo" i dont mean go rambo and do stuff on your own. I just mean not be forced into a formal and ballanced squad. Just work with whatever teammates happen to be around you at the time to accomplish the goal at hand.

[Chiron]

In PS right now, soloside with BR 23 CR 5 grunts are more like swiss army knives.* Able to play on their own with no help.




Dont nerf the ability to solo just because you think people should be in a squad.* Fact is that 3 skilled br23 swiss army knives on TS are far more effective then 3 skilled br23's soloing BECAUSE they are useing teamwork......not becuase the game penalizes people for not being in a squad.

Hell if you give someone a gun its possible to solo.* I do it all the time in BF2 and can solo as most of the classes depending on the map.

Alot of the time I rather not play then be forced to work in a squad of noobs who I dont know and am not on voice coms with.* Unless you are in a very large active outfit you are gonna be online at times when there really isnt an organized squad going.* You should be able to solo if you want and still be effective.* By "solo" i dont mean go rambo and do stuff on your own.* I just mean not be forced into a formal and ballanced squad.* Just work with whatever teammates happen to be around you at the time to accomplish the goal at hand.


No I dont want to nerf a solo player, just if they are not in a squad they dont get the same benefits as those in squads. When you are in a squad with a commander who wants to lead you get more information on enemy positions faster and can react faster. A solo player would not have access to all that information and would be just as deadly, but have to be more on his toes. He would only be getting map info from motion sensors and from nearby players seeing enemy. He would not get UAV information and command link information on enemy positions.

[phades]

2nd: Figure some additional mechanics into your discussion of artillery.*
1) A nearby explosion will cause a "haze" effect similar to BF2
2) Explosions in the immediate vicinity will "throw" players a certain distance based on the explosive force of the warhead and the player's distance to it (ala FarCry).* Rag-doll animations FTW

Game on.

Id be careful with both of those ideas. Whiteout/blackout conditions suck as a byproduct of weaponfire and typically become annoying more than useful environmental effect. The throwing by explosive force can easily lead to forced supression causing people to get hurled back indoors indefinatly, never to get off a clean shot. This is one reason why mortar suppresion in tribes was used and hated as it basically denied territory for a period of time.

[Cogburn]

Mortars in Tribes were a little ridiculous if your aim was good. :)

Your point is not lost, though. Because we're dealing with a significantly higher number of players, the radius around an explosion by which these effects are triggered must be relatively small.

That and I'm anticipating only large calibre explosions triggering those effects.

If its big, and if its close, you'll suffer a little.

[abathur]

A good point. I'd recommend not really having a significant amount of effect on infantry weapons. Maybe point blank/1m radius for concussive effect on something like high explosive grenades or a deci-like weapon. I'm not sure if you've played BF2, phades, but the effect in that game was simililar to (but probably a little watered down from) the conc nades in TF/TFC along with some blurring (and the icing on the cake, a short-term loss of hearing where you can hear your heartbeat yet all other sounds are muffled.)

Not really looking for a "omg, you're useless for 10 seconds because something blew up nearby" but more to add that immersion factor that comes with something like that.

That reminds me, are we going to be able to dive on grenades and eat damage for others? (is that even very feasible?)