Concepts Needed: Weapons

[Cogburn]

Here's a list of weapons that are empire specific that require a concept model/drawing.* Please include a basic explanation (and sample animation if possible) that describes the behavior of the weapon: reloads, bolt, chamber and eject points, etc.* A seperate model of the magazine is also required.

Empire Specific
* One-shot-per-pull Pisol
* One-shot-per-pull Rifle
* SMG
* Non-deployable infantry-held cannon (basically, HA)

Note:* ES weapons are "cooled" and not refilled.* Magazines should keep that in mind.* Remnant weaponry is plasma based, and Vachir weapons are ballistic projectiles that are "refilled" with amorphous ballistic matter via the system abathur has outlined elsewhere (http://www.markovforums.com/SMF/index.php?topic=2370.msg47651#msg47651).* Since he spent $100 on software for this project (which has been a pain in the ass to have delivered), the Vachir reloading system is called the "Brolli Device" and the magazines are "Brolli Tubes" or just "tubes". ;)

Non-Empire Specific
* Full-auto machine Pisol - DoT should be average for all empire pistols.* Clip size should be small requiring almost every shot to land to kill a fully armored opponent (somewhere between an Amp pistol and a repeater).
* SMG, smaller clip but higher RoF than empire-specific versions.* Damage for this weapon should be an avg between the 3 empires

Note: All NES weapons are 10mm rounds in a standard magazine.* All empires have access to these weapons and their ammo.* These weapons still require unique Skills for use, but their benefit is the slight changes in behavior and the "mask" that it provides as to which empire the owner belongs.

So... All that being said...

There are now 14 weapon models that require a concept for Milestone 1.* I'm going to moderate this thread heavily so it only pertains to the topic at hand.

Not all concepts may be used, but like all other discussions of this nature, we may borrow bits and pieces from different concepts for the final incarnation.

I'm really interested to see what you can come up with.* :)

[Kyraal]

Well, here's the idea I had for the Erudite Sodality pistol.

http://www.davidostman.com/psalt/erudite_pistol_concept_1_0.jpg

Basically it works in such a way that once it's time to cool the weapon down, you eject the old coolant rod (which has taken a red colour) by pushing the little eject button (3), and insert a new coolant rod into the handle.

What now follows is that the ventilation slits (1) let particle steam flow out, as expected when the capacitor (2) is cooled down. The capacitor isn't planned to be actually removable, but I decided to put it there as well, for clarity.

The form fits the Sodality style, with no real sharp corners anywhere.

http://www.davidostman.com/psalt/erudite_pistol_concept_1_0_detail.jpg

[Mug]

That looks really great.

Just a little nitpick though, is that the same gun that's in the Erudite Sodality trooper concept? The gun in the trooper concept looks a little longer, and the grip on it almost makes it look like it could be wielded like a shotgun or smg.

[Kyraal]

The gun in the Sodality light soldier concept was just a bit of a placeholder :)

[Aftiel]

Ok a few things:

1. Sorry for the large size.
2. I tried adding some color I envisioned in photoshop but I'm a noob and failed at that.
3. The cross on the handle/mag could very well be changed to whatever the Remnant logo will be (possibly the thing on the book of the Remnant concept art by Kryaal, also quickly sketched on the far right of my concept work).
4. I like the number four.

http://3rdcompany.net/versus/concept_art/remnantpistol_opt.jpg

[Xae]

I think that there should be "directives" for ES weaponry, while the weapons wouldn't be all designed by the same persons, it would have a culteral background, and technical aspects that are similar.

[Cogburn]

Don't forget, this is artistic brainstorming.

If you have a vision for a weapon already posted, by all means contribute yours as well.

None of these designs are "complete".

We've got some good submissions so far. Keep em coming. 8)

[matty]

I dunno much about guns, so I made this looking at 2 that I thought were cool looking....the pistol from half life and a baretta(sp?).

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v197/mattybmx98/pistol2.jpg

[Jtard]

http://img373.imageshack.us/img373/5977/gun1et.jpg

freakin heck yes =D

[Aftiel]

I have a pretty kickass (if I do say so myself) design for the "one shot per pull rifle" in the works, hopefully I'll finish it up and post before work tomorrow, bedtime for now.

[Mug]

I think I'm getting the hang of this modeling shit :D Just a little test of kryaals gun

[Aftiel]

haha you called it a gat.

[Pipedream]

I'm no concept artist - but here's a little pic to help churn up ideas..
http://www.zmass.net/model_browser/garg/gun-icon-over.jpg

[RebelCommander]

That would make a good shoulder-mounted AV weapon (think Lancer)

[abathur]

Your MOM would make a good shoulder mounted AV weapon!

[UGoBoy]

Placeholder for the Vachir pistol. Will try to have something up by tonight or tomorrow.

I'm basically looking for the Vachir gun to be a large belt-fed revolver. I know...it sounds like a contradiction, but I have an idea :P

I've also got a rough idea of how something like a Brolli device would fit in with the primative Vachir style. It amounts to an "inkjet" 3D printer with three components: bonding material, liquid propellant, and a catalytic agent. Vachir troops would carry the device as a satchel (fitting in with the rough art idea that I have), and ammo would be printed in real time, and fed out as belts that are stuffed into their guns. I'll try to get a sketch of that up as well.

[Kyraal]

I think I'm getting the hang of this modeling shit :D Just a little test of kryaals gun


That looks actually better than my sketch :)

[MasterCalaelen]

I think I'm getting the hang of this modeling shit :D Just a little test of kryaals gun


That looks actually better than my sketch :)


Isn't that a Pokeball on the part where you hold your hand?

[GreatMazinkaiser]

Isn't that a Pokeball on the part where you hold your hand?


No, it's the symbol of the Erudite Solidarity, a cogwheel with 2 spokes.

[GreatMazinkaiser]

http://web.utk.edu/~dhill10/http:/web.utk.edu/~dhill10/images/vachirhvypistol.png

Vachir Tanistry Arslan Heavy Pistol

Specs:
8 shots per 'tube'
RoF: 1 shot per pull of the trigger so about once every second or so
Damage: Rather high, uses heavy ABM slugs
Fairly accurate, but CoF bloom decreases by x-percentage with every pull of the trigger w/o cool-down time of a second.

Works much like your standard revolver, with the exception being that each portion of the chamber is filled individually by the 'tube' mounted on the barrel as the gun fires. The red portion of the tube indicates how much of it has been used up.


*please forgive the inheritent weaknesses of making shit out of Legos*

[UGoBoy]

Yeah, that's somewhat like I'm imagining. The mechanics are going to be somewhat different, though...mostly because I can't imagine what use a hammer would be in a high-tech pistol, even if it is a revolver.

Tangent:
And something about the whole mechanics of a "Brolli tube" just seem sort of...wanky to me. Why bother with all this "nondeterministic ballistic matter" if each empire just has their own ammo types to begin with?

[GreatMazinkaiser]

Vachir weapons are ballistic projectiles that are "refilled" with amorphous ballistic matter via the system abathur has outlined elsewhere. Since he spent $100 on software for this project (which has been a pain in the ass to have delivered), the Vachir reloading system is called the "Brolli Device" and the magazines are "Brolli Tubes" or just "tubes".


*That* is why we have the silly "Brolli Device" reloading system...

On another note, if it's a revolver, it's gonna have a hammer, else it's not a revolver. Also it's not a high-tech pistol, really. That's how the Vachir roll, using some of the more (comparably) primitive weapons. Perhaps you're thinking more along the lines of a gun with a drum magazine?

Either way, no way of passing judgement on your version of the weapon unless you actually produce some art for it...

[Aftiel]

UGoBoy you might want to learn what the hammer is even for....yeah...

It's for striking the firing pin which then strikes the primer that ignites the round causing the bullet to be fired out of the barrel (highly simplified explanation). So when rounds are formed on the fly using the ABM via the brolli device/tubes they still need to be fired, not to mention the revolving chamber/hammer are mechanically entwined so moving one results in moving the other. Also on many the hammer is a mechanical safety, i.e. as long as it's not "cocked" the gun cannot discharge.

[Kyraal]

Vachir weapons are ballistic projectiles that are "refilled" with amorphous ballistic matter via the system abathur has outlined elsewhere. Since he spent $100 on software for this project (which has been a pain in the ass to have delivered), the Vachir reloading system is called the "Brolli Device" and the magazines are "Brolli Tubes" or just "tubes".


*That* is why we have the silly "Brolli Device" reloading system...


Kinda raised my eyebrow a bit at that one as well. Money. Time. We all contribute to this project, and both are equally valuable. But that's another sort of discussion :)

Revolver
I think the definition of a revolver is a gun with a revolving cylinder. The hammer and pin isn't necessary, it might as well be an electrical "hammer".

GreatMazinkaiser, I like the look, but it does have a bit of a contemporary look to it, like just an ordinary revolver (the Brolli aside). I realise it's not easy to to make anything intricate using Lego, and the Vachir -are- supposed to be a bit Retro..

Aftiel, nice look on that gun, definitely looks powerful :)

[Mug]

Vachir Tanistry Arslan Heavy Pistol

Specs:
8 shots per 'tube'
RoF: 1 shot per pull of the trigger so about once every second or so
Damage: Rather high, uses heavy ABM slugs
Fairly accurate, but CoF bloom decreases by x-percentage with every pull of the trigger w/o cool-down time of a second.

Works much like your standard revolver, with the exception being that each portion of the chamber is filled individually by the 'tube' mounted on the barrel as the gun fires. The red portion of the tube indicates how much of it has been used up.


*please forgive the inheritent weaknesses of making shit out of Legos*
Thats a pretty good spot for the "brolli device". I was wondering how something like that would fit on a pistol. I like the over all look, but the Vachir are supposed to be retro to whatever time period this saga takes place. I envisioned their weaponry to be retro versions of the ES and Remnant technology. Kind of antiquated version of what the two factions would be using in game. Maybe make their weaponry a blend between the two styles.

[GreatMazinkaiser]

GreatMazinkaiser, I like the look, but it does have a bit of a contemporary look to it, like just an ordinary revolver (the Brolli aside). I realise it's not easy to to make anything intricate using Lego, and the Vachir -are- supposed to be a bit Retro..


Would it look alright if I replaced the hammer with something a bit more sophisticated? Maybe added some indicator lights along the barrel?

Lego does have *some* limitations, but if you guys let me know what's missing, I can probably fix it up nice...

[Aftiel]

Ty Kryaal, hopefully someone can model it up so it looks a little better then my meager artwork :D

[Cl2v2r]

Ty Kryaal, hopefully someone can model it up so it looks a little better then my meager artwork :D


I'm giving it a go right now, but bear with me as it might take a while.

Were you thinking of embossing the empire symbol on the grip? or just a flush colour inset?

[Cl2v2r]

Here we go, the mostly finished model.

It needs a bigger and slightly more polished grip, as well as a better barrel. I'll get to that at some point, it's bed time.

I also took the liberty of colouring it according to the armour style. As I was I realised that no-one will ever see the mark on the grips, we need to migrate them to the side of the slide/barrell.


Front
http://img394.imageshack.us/img394/5682/aftpistolfront3dv.jpg

Back
http://img394.imageshack.us/img394/3882/afpistolback2ei.jpg

Front with slide back
http://img379.imageshack.us/img379/8117/aftpistolslid4rv.jpg

Back with slide back
http://img394.imageshack.us/img394/1415/aftpistolslidback8of.jpg

;D

[Aftiel]

Looking good :)

...I may be biased though.

[UGoBoy]

UGoBoy you might want to learn what the hammer is even for....yeah...

It's for striking the firing pin which then strikes the primer that ignites the round causing the bullet to be fired out of the barrel (highly simplified explanation). So when rounds are formed on the fly using the ABM via the brolli device/tubes they still need to be fired, not to mention the revolving chamber/hammer are mechanically entwined so moving one results in moving the other. Also on many the hammer is a mechanical safety, i.e. as long as it's not "cocked" the gun cannot discharge.


My brother was a firearms collector, and I've fired ~100 different firearms of various vintages. I've owned eight of my own at various poinst, and hand tuned a .44 Magnum single-action Colt-style...so yeah, I have a *slight* idea what a hammer is for.

And I'm not saying that Brolli doesn't need recognition. It's the proposed way that his device works that I have a beef with. I'm saying that adding a device to a *revolver* (which is a very primitive form of firearm) that can basically create ammunition on the fly is like sticking a warp engine on a triplane. And even *if* you're looking at a system to create ammunition on the fly, I don't think you'd want it to make something that has to create complicated shapes like a primer/shell/powder/bullet combination.

Call me insane, but if I were creating a device that could make bullets on the fly, they'd be caseless. They'd also be electrically ignited. If I were putting them in a big, bulky revolver, it would be because they're big bulky projectiles that wouldn't work well in an automatic pistol format.

Also, I'm all for a "Brolli Device". But at the same time, I'm not a big fan of having it actually being attached to the guns themselves. I'd rather it be a device that troops carried on them that basically built the ammunition for them, which they then fed into their guns. From a manufacturing standpoint, this would make the weapons themselves be very cheap to produce, and considerably less mechanically complex.

And I apologize in advance. When it comes to firearms and cohesive logic, I'm as big a drama queen as Abathur is over plot :/

[Aftiel]

Well since this ABM stuff is completley madeup IMO we really don't have anything to base design on because hey maybe it *can* make a cartridge that works fine for a revolver, and maybe it can only make caseless ammo. However, given the Vachir are supposed to be a more tech regressed feel (I think) then the other empires I like the revolver idea for their pistol. If the god of this project (Cog) decides otherwise and wants to go caseless and slightly more techy then fine. Might as well just give em the G11 (http://remtek.com/arms/hk/mil/g11/g11.htm) with single shot only for their rifle ;D

Hell the Vachir slogan could be, "Powered by HK" :)

[GreatMazinkaiser]

I'm not a big fan of having it actually being attached to the guns themselves. I'd rather it be a device that troops carried on them that basically built the ammunition for them, which they then fed into their guns. From a manufacturing standpoint, this would make the weapons themselves be very cheap to produce, and considerably less mechanically complex.


I believe the idea was that the Brolli device was simply the refilling mechanism for the tubes, not an actual production mechanism. The tubes themselves make the ammo...

Belt/Back/Thigh-attached ammo manufacturing plant == somewhat lame... you're better off using modern ammo.

[UGoBoy]

Aft: That's what's got me itching right now. The Vachir are supposed to be more technically regressed than the other empires...but they have tubes of goo that somehow make bullets feeding their guns? It just seems a little out-of-whack.

Mazinkaiser: The advantage such a system would have over modern ammo is space efficiency. Instead of carrying packs of complex shapes, you carry a few solid tubes/blocks of material, and "print" them as you need them. Very space efficient, especially if the system didn't use magazines or clips. The "belt" could be printed as part of the projectile design.

To keep the Brolli tube built into the revolver, and still have it be a revolver, it'd be pretty easy to say "the projectiles take a moment to harden, thus the rotating chambers give them time to solidify". That's cool, and it'd work. At the same time, we'd need to take that logic across to any other Brolli-device-using system...so their machine guns would have multiple chambers? Some cooling device attached? I'm just trying to point out that we shouldn't make any design decisions in a vacuum, just to help out the consistency of the arsenal.

[Aftiel]

Almost like the Erudite Sodality should have the spooge tubes. Vachir should have cased ammo (as opposed to caseless). With the Remnant having the plasma weaponry.

Can we get a final word on this Coggy?

Or we can go with the multiple barrels/cooling to harden the brolli spooge ala the revolver...

[Cogburn]

Oooook...

Erudite Sodality: No ammo, needs to be cooled via coolant OR unfired for a prohibitive period of time. Even using coolant, the time to cool is slightly longer than the time required to "recharge" the Brolli Device in VT weapons.

Vachir Tanistry:* ABM (Amorphous Ballistic Matter) is used like standard "clips".* "Reloading" is done by attaching a Brolli tube to the weapon and letting it "charge".* The longer the tube is held on the weapon, the more it refills.* These weapons do not overheat very fast if at all, but for consistancy they still have a heat rating per shot.

The Remnant:* Straight up clip-type reloads, but generates more heat than the Vachir.* It has no cooling system like the ES, but it dissipates heat faster so overheating isn't as much of a problem as it is for the ES, but it is still a concern if you are just straight spamming rounds.* Basically, it's a middle ground between the ES and the VT.

Does that help?

[GreatMazinkaiser]

http://web.utk.edu/~dhill10/http:/web.utk.edu/~dhill10/images/arslanangle.png

http://web.utk.edu/~dhill10/http:/web.utk.edu/~dhill10/images/arslanrear.png

Teched my previous model up a bit, tell me what you think...

[Mug]

I like the idea of a pneumatic hammer, that could be something common across all vachir weaponry.
How long does it take to make one of those lego models?

[GreatMazinkaiser]

How long does it take to make one of those lego models?


Depends. Modification I can do in just a couple of minutes, but I believe the gun model took me an hour, hour and a half perhaps; the tanks were about the same.

Since I don't start with a concept drawing or even really look at anything (directly) for inspiration, more unusual things are harder to build (which is why my ES "Cyclops" SDA and Vachir Heavy Buggy aren't done yet).

[Aftiel]

The Remnant: Straight up clip-type reloads, but generates more heat than the Vachir. It has no cooling system like the ES, but it dissipates heat faster so overheating isn't as much of a problem as it is for the ES, but it is still a concern if you are just straight spamming rounds. Basically, it's a middle ground between the ES and the VT.


I though the remnant was using plasma? Not a big change to my work so far but just wanted to clarify (could have sworn you said plasma for them earlier, plus IMO plasma/fire with the religious group is kickass).

[Mug]

Here's something I was toying around with for the non ES auto machine pistol. Just a sketch so far, the profile shape needs something but I can't put my finger on it.. i'm open to suggestions
http://img354.imageshack.us/img354/9517/pewpew0rz.th.jpg (http://img354.imageshack.us/my.php?image=pewpew0rz.jpg)http://img366.imageshack.us/img366/2941/pewpewtew9fl.th.jpg (http://img366.imageshack.us/my.php?image=pewpewtew9fl.jpg)http://img137.imageshack.us/img137/8319/pewpewthrew6ha3ev.jpg
a profile if anyone wants to dick around with it.
an for the love of God aftiel, this thread needs a SECOND PAGE!!! ;D

edit: reversed the magazine, and lined up the barrel with the.. uhh ejection thing

[Aftiel]

The magazine curve needs to be reversed/eliminated. The only reason mags have curves are to aid the feed, a curve that way doesn't make sense. Also the barrel is a little too highup if you draw a line straight back you'll see what I mean. It needs to be at least a 1/4" lower (on my screen at least).

And the pages occur at set post counts, nothing I can do to change that without changing every thread. Sorry.

[Kyraal]

Cl2v2r & Aftiel,

One concern I'm having when watching it now is that upper part of the grip is a bit too angular. The part which rests against the soft tissue between your thumb and index finger. In the 3D render that Cl2v2r made, the weapon appears to be far too wide, and thick. It would be a bit like holding a bottle, with another bottle affixed to it at an 80 degree angle :) At least the grip should be considerably thinner, and possibly the rest of the gun.

I'm not overly concerned about the placement of the faction logo, whether or not its view is obscured by the hand holding the gun or not. It should be sufficient to show it to the player holding the gun, in an idle animation while he's not firing -- perhaps turning the palm slightly upwards, relaxing his grip on the gun a bit. The enemy isn't going to care either way, he just doesn't want to have the gun pointing at him ;)

Mug,

Although your concern about the orientation of that magazine does make sense, Aftiel, a weapon at that height would be able to rotate the cartridge and bullet before feeding it into the chamber. Which in fact -would- make more sense, as it should transport the cartridge to a more logical place in the weapon, other than where the cartridge is fed into the gun..

It has a very cool, and heavy look to it, Mug. Grip might seem a bit too wide, as in Cl2v2rs render above. I might be wrong, though, if possible thin it down a bit and we'll see what it looks like :)

[Kyraal]

GreatMazinkaiser,

A pressure gauge would give a nice retro feel to it. A bit of a steampunk sci-fi feel :) Could you post some (preferably) isometric shots of it from the side-, front-, back-, and top-views? Will be easier to get an overall view of it that way.

Unless we're going to actually have a working laser sight in the game, a laser sight on the gun would be fairly annoying. The Decimator, for example, has it in PlanetSide, and it's one of those non functional-functional pieces of fluff that we can be without, I think..

[Cogburn]

Just so everyone knows, laser sights are possible, but a little unnessecessary given the CoF system.

Since we will have an actual "night" and "nightvision", a flashlight at the bottom of the weapon might be a little more appropriate.

You could flip it on and blind people w/ nightvision on :)

[Cl2v2r]

Yeah, the grip was the least of my worries when I was doing it, so I didn't put much detail or thought into it.

It needs to be contoured and scaled to fit yet.

However, I just taught myself to animate, and got this little thing going with it to show off the cooling effect Afty was talking about.

http://www.sendmefile.com/00075237

It's 840 something KB, so dialupers may want to skip it.

Next stop, the grip. :)

[SgtBjork]

Here are a couple of things I drew up for ES specific rifles, but didn't have a specific empire in mind.

http://webpages.charter.net/thedriver/Images/ps-alt-rifle.JPG
http://webpages.charter.net/thedriver/Images/ps-alt-smg.JPG

I was thinking that the lever action theme could fit into the Vachir style since it's kind of retro, but then subsequent things that I've read about this Brolli Tube stuff kind of causes problems with it. I love the lever action though (just saw a History Channel thing on the first breach loaders).

It's been about a year or so since I used the digital artpad, so forgive the crappiness of the drawings. I'm trying to find my old rendering software, but I can't seem to find it. :(

[UGoBoy]

I actually like the idea of the lever-action on the Vachir rifles.* Not levered on every shot...but pushing the lever to expose Brolli's nipple ;P

I.e. when the lever is moved forward, the action exposes the connector for the Brolli tube, and maybe it hisses a little steam and pressure just for dramatic effect.* Then your character plugs the tube into the back of the gun to recharge, and removes the tube and closes the lever to close the pressure seal again.

And I like the gun being long and lean like a WW2/WW1 gun, with no protruding clips.* I think that would be a very good look for the Vachir stuff.

P.S. I finally got my art computer working last night, so I'm going to actually be adding something other than piss and vinegar to the discussions soon :P

P.S.S. I *really* like the idea of the Brolli weapons having visible signs of the contents being under pressure. Mazinkaiser's pressure gauge is a cool idea, as is the pneumatic hammer. I think I'm going to design any Vachir weapons that use the Brolli tubes as being pressure-ignited...it's weird, it's funky, and I can't really think of any "fire"arms that use a system like that. It's also sort of antiquated feeling, and would give us reasons to have the guns hiss and steam and generally be pretty retro-steam-punk-tastic.

[nadir]

http://web.utk.edu/~dhill10/http:/web.utk.edu/~dhill10/images/arslanangle.png

http://web.utk.edu/~dhill10/http:/web.utk.edu/~dhill10/images/arslanrear.png

Teched my previous model up a bit, tell me what you think...


I was going to suggest something along the lines of a piston type hammer thant the std. hammer we are used to seeing. Then I saw you changed it to the pnuematic deal. I like.

[nadir]

Here's something I was toying around with for the non ES auto machine pistol. Just a sketch so far, the profile shape needs something but I can't put my finger on it.. i'm open to suggestions
http://img354.imageshack.us/img354/9517/pewpew0rz.th.jpg (http://img354.imageshack.us/my.php?image=pewpew0rz.jpg)http://img366.imageshack.us/img366/2941/pewpewtew9fl.th.jpg (http://img366.imageshack.us/my.php?image=pewpewtew9fl.jpg)http://img137.imageshack.us/img137/8319/pewpewthrew6ha3ev.jpg
a profile if anyone wants to dick around with it.
an for the love of God aftiel, this thread needs a SECOND PAGE!!! ;D

edit: reversed the magazine, and lined up the barrel with the.. uhh ejection thing


Looks like an AMP on steroids! :P

[Aftiel]

Although your concern about the orientation of that magazine does make sense, Aftiel, a weapon at that height would be able to rotate the cartridge and bullet before feeding it into the chamber. Which in fact -would- make more sense, as it should transport the cartridge to a more logical place in the weapon, other than where the cartridge is fed into the gun..


Cl2v2r addressed the grip issues for my concept work. And while I agree the cartridge should/will/does need to move back from the mag insertion point on Mug's weapon I can't think of a very logical way to rotate a cartridge through 180 degrees in a pistol. IMO something like that would be very complex and prone to failure.

Which brings up another point, will guns in this game ever "jam" in any way shape or form?

[Kyraal]

SgtBjork,

Nice idea with a lever-action twist to the rifle :) I can see the ES influece in the rifles, definitely. For a Vachir design I think they'd have to be a bit "crude-ified".

UGoBoy,

I think we have to be careful with all the hissing and steam. As it is now the most logical weapons to produce steam are the Sodality and Remnant weapons, which are weapons that generate a lot of heat. I don't think steam would emerge from the Vachir weapons. Hissing on the other hand is a completely different issue, as you'd probably have a similar sound as when you've pumped the tire to your bike, or car, and remove the nozzle. A little "pshh" noise.

Aftiel,

I'm sure the scientists a few handfuls of years into the future have found a way to rotate a bullet 180 degrees through a pistol of that size :) The P90 does a good job with 90 degrees, although that movement is minimal.

As for jamming. A good question that should be addressed. Make a thread for it in the Weapons/Gameplay forum, and we can get cracking :)

[Mug]

http://img343.imageshack.us/img343/6335/pewpew6jz.th.jpg (http://img343.imageshack.us/my.php?image=pewpew6jz.jpg)
pushed around some vertices, made things a little tighter. Thinned out the grip a little after what kryaal said, looks pretty good. If we're putting flashlights on weapons, I'd imagine one would fit pretty nice in that mound of poly's below the barrel, or strapped to the side. Something needs to be done with the front of it, smaller magazine maybe.
Hopefully I can spend some more time on it tonight.

[UGoBoy]

UGoBoy,

I think we have to be careful with all the hissing and steam. As it is now the most logical weapons to produce steam are the Sodality and Remnant weapons, which are weapons that generate a lot of heat. I don't think steam would emerge from the Vachir weapons. Hissing on the other hand is a completely different issue, as you'd probably have a similar sound as when you've pumped the tire to your bike, or car, and remove the nozzle. A little "pshh" noise.



I was thinking more about "steam" from compressed fluids being released. Not really steam from heat...but a visible fog from compressed gasses and fluids being shot out of crude valves on Vachir weapons. It could be fun to make ABM green-ish, just to have little jets of green vapor and fluids leaking out of the Brolli connectors.

[Aftiel]

I'll make another thread for that Kryaal.

Mug given that mag looks like it could chamber rifle rounds you could shrink it down definitley. Here's a pic that illustrates what I'm talking about somewhat:

http://www.quarry.nildram.co.uk/sp-4_9x19E.jpg

[Kyraal]

I was thinking more about "steam" from compressed fluids being released. Not really steam from heat...but a visible fog from compressed gasses and fluids being shot out of crude valves on Vachir weapons. It could be fun to make ABM green-ish, just to have little jets of green vapor and fluids leaking out of the Brolli connectors.


Hehe, yeah that's what I was a bit worried about, as it will possibly make all the weapons hiss/steam/fog, which in itself doesn't have to be a bad thing, but might take some uniqueness away from the faction weapons.

Sodality weapons hissing and releasing steam when cooled with cooling rods. Remnant weapons possibly hissing and releasing steam (remember that plasma is superheated gas). Vachir weapons hissing, and releasing fog.

This is going to need some thought. I'm not sure it's a good idea to have -all- the weapons sharing these characteristics, which are essentially identical, regardless of the colour of the emitted particles.

[abathur]

I'd go with more of a sucking/sealing sound with the vachir stuff. And a plasma weapon releasing gas in any method when it's operationally based on superheated gas doesn't seem like a good idea.

[Aftiel]

Well according to Cog's earlier post:

Erudite Sodality: No ammo, needs to be cooled via coolant OR unfired for a prohibitive period of time. Even using coolant, the time to cool is slightly longer than the time required to "recharge" the Brolli Device in VT weapons.

Vachir Tanistry: ABM (Amorphous Ballistic Matter) is used like standard "clips". "Reloading" is done by attaching a Brolli tube to the weapon and letting it "charge". The longer the tube is held on the weapon, the more it refills. These weapons do not overheat very fast if at all, but for consistancy they still have a heat rating per shot.

The Remnant: Straight up clip-type reloads, but generates more heat than the Vachir. It has no cooling system like the ES, but it dissipates heat faster so overheating isn't as much of a problem as it is for the ES, but it is still a concern if you are just straight spamming rounds. Basically, it's a middle ground between the ES and the VT.

So I guess no Remnant plasma so straight up GUNS, more real-worldey (current time anyway). With the ES having no ammo they use lasers right? And the VT have the spooge-o-cannons.

[Kyraal]

I agree on plasma not being ventilated, extremely volatile as it is. Actually, I'm opting for a more 'conventional' delivery system, in form of plasma-propelled bullets. Basically normal looking bullets of a futuristic alloy, that are filled with pressurised plasma, and self-propelled - thereby getting that plasma trail as the bullets fly through the air.

So upon impact, the metal of the bullet takes care of armor penetration, and as the bullet gets deformed the remaining plasma breaks free. This also means you get a natural damage degradation, as the more of the plasma is used to propell the projectile, the less is left to damage the target.

I really should put this in a separate thread..

[Aftiel]

I do like that idea, practicality aside (i.e. we don't need to figure out exactly how it would work).

[UGoBoy]

http://members.cox.net/qharjo/Vachir%20Pistol.jpg

My take on the Vachir pistol. This is just the side rough. I'll do isometrics and components break-down when I haven't had to work a 13 hour day :/

I designed the pistol to have a long, lean look like a cavalry pistol, harking back to the Mongol tradition of firing from horseback. I broke the revolving mechanism down to the absolute basics...two chambers. One for the Brolli round to form in, one to be fired from. The ABM storage is in the hollow grip, leadin up to the Brolli compressor underneath the reloading lever. The lever itself releases the pneumatic hammer's built-up pressure (just hissing, no steam :) and opens the Brolli coupler in the grip, where the reloading tube attaches. The tube is removed, the lever pressed up, and the pistol closes the hammer and the coupler with a snap and a sucking sound.

The cleaning rod has to do with an idea I had on how Brolli projectiles would work. Basically, there's a gas suspended in the ABM. The Brolli Device separates this normally inert gas from the ABM, and acts as a catalytic converter, making it into a gas that's explosive under pressure. This happens in the forming chamber, along with the casting of the projectile from the ABM. Then the pneumatic hammer compresses the gas, causing it to explode and propelling the projectile at great velocities. As Sgt Bjork put it, they're sort of "diesel" firearms. I figure this sort of system would eventually lead to a good amount of barrel fouling, thus the cleaning rod. That, and I was looking for an excuse to put a Remington-style curvy bit o' metal under the barrel.

This pistol does have a pressure gauge and a spooge-o-meter, but I don't have them sketched in, because they'd be hard to see from this angle. I'll have them in the isometrics.

[Cogburn]

http://members.cox.net/qharjo/Vachir%20Pistol.jpg


That's so 1800's retro it's badass. I'm kinda diggin on the theme that VT weapons are modernized versions of weapons from the Wild-Wild-West.

Not to mention it would look very nice in the hands of the VT armor concepts that we haven't released yet. :)

Our "HA" has some specific rules that all empires follow, so let's avoid that for now. What can you do in that theme for the heavier weapons that aren't Level 3?

[GreatMazinkaiser]

Nice looking, though I think the fin/wedge piece under the cleaning rod seems somewhat out of place. That and I don't particularly care for the iron sight (triangular/rectangular sights for the win)...

[UGoBoy]

The fin's there mostly because it looked a little gawky without something down there. I might leave it open so a flashlight or something could be hung under there. Though the fin would help make the pistol one seriously painful gun to get clocked with :P

As for the sights...I dunno how we're doing zooming in this game. But if we do the BF2-style zooms where you actually look down the gun's sights, I though a dot/ring setup would be a nice change from the normal block-and-notch style of sights. I'm sort of flexible on that as well, though.

[GreatMazinkaiser]

The fin might actually be ok, but if you keep it I'd suggest making it thinner and straighter, *might* make it look better...

[UGoBoy]

Actually, thinking over how the Brolli bullet forming would work in the pistol, I have an idea of what should be under the barrell...some sort of piston/compressor/bullet mold that presses into the mouth of the forming cylinder to shape the bullet. So that clears that up, and I'll put it in the sketches tonight.

[Kyraal]

UGoBoy,

I thought your design of that revolver was so awesome that I made a quick 3D model of it this morning before heading to work. Didn't have time to post it, so here it is now. I forgot the Brolli Tube coupler, and some other details, so it's not really identical to your sketch as I didn't put it as an image plane.

This is a somewhat high poly model, which could be used for the first person view. Other people's revolvers can be scaled down quite a bit in detail if necessary, replacing some of the detail with textures. Up close, it's nice with a little more detail. I don't expect this model to be in the game, but I just thought it was such a neat design that I wanted to try it out in 3D :)

It's 780 triangles, if anyone's interested in such things..

http://www.davidostman.com/versus/3d_vachir_pistol_01.jpg

http://www.davidostman.com/versus/3d_vachir_pistol_02.jpg

http://www.davidostman.com/versus/3d_vachir_pistol_03.jpg

EDIT 1

Leaving the front of the barrel thin actually produces a nicer look, I think..

http://www.davidostman.com/versus/3d_vachir_pistol_04.jpg

EDIT 2

Realised the cylinder probably isn't all round, seeing it's only got two chambers..

http://www.davidostman.com/versus/3d_vachir_pistol_05.jpg

[UGoBoy]

Very nice :)* I do somewhat like the thin barrel, and had toyed around with leaving it blank.* That would leave putting the sights entirely on the top-strap though, and that's be a fairly short sighting plane.* Though...with a little fiddling, that could work too.

Edit: And yeah, I did intend the "cylinder" to have flat sides. The bevel is a nice touch, and is definitely a keeper.

[Mug]

UGoBoy,

I thought your design of that revolver was so awesome that I made a quick 3D model of it this morning before heading to work. Didn't have time to post it, so here it is now. I forgot the Brolli Tube coupler, and some other details, so it's not really identical to your sketch as I didn't put it as an image plane.

This is a somewhat high poly model, which could be used for the first person view. Other people's revolvers can be scaled down quite a bit in detail if necessary, replacing some of the detail with textures. Up close, it's nice with a little more detail. I don't expect this model to be in the game, but I just thought it was such a neat design that I wanted to try it out in 3D :)

It's 780 triangles, if anyone's interested in such things..
Damn that's looking really nice. I like the shot without the iron sights and muzzle bevel, gives it an even simpler retro look. It seems like you could add a little something to that flat part between the cylinder and handle. Maybe a larger chamfer of those edges... or maybe its just me :P

[Aftiel]

It also gives it the "I have no good way to aim this thing" look...

[Cl2v2r]

Aftiel and I were hashing out the general idea for the Remnants rifle. The idea was to futurise the SMLE, keeping cased ammo.

So far I have done the main body, but am running into problems trying to do the detail. The SMLE was a toploading rifle, and one shot per pull. Keeping the one shot per pull, do we keep it toploading also?

We were thinking of doing it using cased ammo, seeing it would be pretty easy to change to caseless if we went that way.

Still have to do the boltwork yet, so bear with me.

So far:
http://concept.onsandon.com.au/rifle12.jpg

What do you guys think so far? Other views are at http://concept.onsandon.com.au, where I'll start stockpiling all my work.

[GreatMazinkaiser]

Excellent rifle Cl2v2r... reminds me a lot of the Soviet from Goldeneye; the cut-out is especially cool.

Detail-wise, can't help you, as my knowledge is limitted.

I should have a shotgun and a rifle up in the next week or so for the VT (based on the discussion you and Afty had), and maybe even a nice VT SMG...

[Kyraal]

Clever (do you have -any- idea what mindjob it is to type Cl2v2r? :P),

Instinctively I think a Versus-version of the SMLE would be part of the Vachir's arsenal. But we are currently in the stage when we've got some 10-20 people with their own unique views on how things should be, and right now it's how we want to keep it. Which reminds me..

NOTA BENE / HEADS UP / *WHISTLE*

I'd like anyone (literally) who feel they have an idea for weapons design to post them here. It might sound like some of the concepts are set in stone, but they aren't. You might have what you think is a great idea, but hesitate to post it because someone beat you to that weapon with a different concept, and the reception was taken well, to the point where it -looks- like we have all agreed on it.

This is a brainstorming thread. Go crazy. Even if you think you suck at art, it doesn't matter. While some people might in fact laugh, I can say with certainty I won't, and I -will- take everything seriously, even if you post something -you- consider just whacky and for a laugh. Some of the best concepts and designs are derived from really, really odd places..

Again. Right now we are in that place where no designs are set in stone. There will be a time when change of designs are very difficult to do (but not impossible), so make the most of it :)

Just do keep in mind that it's likely that some concepts aren't going to get into the game. Some are. In some cases a piece will be plucked from here, and another there, and put together into something completely new. It's part of this process, so try not to feel offended if someone 'violates' your creation :)

[Aftiel]

Kryaal just to get you in the know (and everyone else). Cl2v2r, myself and Kaiser are thinking along the lines of lever-action for the VT with bolt-action for TR. Not set in stone of course but that's how we're kinda doing our designs atm.

[Kyraal]

Looking forward to seeing the proposal :)

[Cl2v2r]

The latest version of the Remnants rifle:

http://concept.onsandon.com.au/rifle20.jpg (http://concept.onsandon.com.au)

Aft had some change suggestions for the boltwork, but I'd be interested to see what every else thinks also.

[Mug]

Another weapon of mass distraction.
http://img374.imageshack.us/img374/3977/weaponofmassdistraction0th.th.jpg (http://img374.imageshack.us/my.php?image=weaponofmassdistraction0th.jpg)
common pool SMG. Stock and clip needs some lovin, but I'll probably do that some other time.

[Aftiel]

Nice simple blockey MP5 kinda look but I like it. You could possibly make the flashlight actually attach below the barrel instead of being imbeded so it is more believable as something you could swap out for say a laser sight or whateva etc.

[UGoBoy]

http://members.cox.net/qharjo/Vachir%20Lever%20action 2.jpg

My Vachir rifle concept. As you can tell, it's really really rough at the moment. I'll fix the barrel later today, and I'm still fiddling with the angle of the stock.

It's a play on SgtBjork's lever-action rifle from earlier in the thread. you only use the lever when you reload. When the lever is worked, the rear portion of the rifle with the pneumatic hammer pops up at an angle to depressurize, and the reloading interface in front of the lever drops down to accept a refill tube. The slightly darker portion on the top is the three-round chamber. With this design, I thought the rifle should be limited to a three-round burst or so, but would operate best with slow, deliberate fire. The scope system mounted on top would be the equivalent of a red-dot scope, maybe with a slight magnification. When the barrell is cleaned up, it'll have the ridged portion for a rifle grenade launcher, which I think would be very Vachir-style (instead of a dedicated tube-style grenade launcher). I may stick a ramp-style grenade sight on the side for that purpose as well.

[Cogburn]

http://members.cox.net/qharjo/Vachir%20Lever%20action 2.jpg


That's a winner... Totally captures the wild-west style and still looks A) lethal and B) futuristic.

Keeping the same style, we need 2 more weapons for the VT... an SMG and the L3 cannon.

Empire Specific Level 3 Cannon Requirements:
All empire-specific weapons will utilize a rotary cannon design, similar to the recoilless vulcan cannon (http://home.att.net/~superspy/images/rocket7.gif). All Emp-Spec weapons will have a wa/co period and will behave the same way. The variance will be in overheat times, reload times, rate of fire, damage over time and cone of fire. This is more for perception purposes than to limit creativity. Uniformity of operation, IMHO, will go a LONG way towards heading off complaints about the inadequacies of one empire L3 cannon vs another. Each will still require tactics specific to the quirks of each weapon, with a basic similarity.

[UGoBoy]

Fair enough. I think a big open-frame Gatling-style gun would fit the Vachir style pretty well, as well as some elaborate gee-gaw on the back that represents several Brolli devices in series that attempt to keep up with the fast refire rate of the thing.

Is the L3 going to be used as a support-style suppression weapon, or more HA-style?

[Cogburn]

Somewhere in between.

Because of the basic mechanics of L3 Cannons, they can be used as HA if the user can "balance" the wa/co timer to be "hot" when needed OR the user can "slam [the mouse button] and spam" until the weapon runs out of ammo or overheats. The role is determined by the method of use.

Here's a thought: how opposed would you be to a "fire all barrels" mode similar to the jackhammer? We'd implement it across all three empires, it would over heat all weapons in 3-5 "bursts" (based on weapon type), and we can implement the standard delays when switching modes.

Just a thought... :)

[GreatMazinkaiser]

http://members.cox.net/qharjo/Vachir%20Lever%20action 2.jpg


Would it be possible for you to label the parts? I'd like to see how this thing works...

Another thing, I believe 3 shot bursts are out for now, as this is intended as a 1 shot per pull rifle.



On another note I should have a version of the VT SMG up sometime tonight or tomorrow.

[UGoBoy]

It would still be a one-shot-per gun...but it'd have the limitation that "you can pull three times fast, but then you're stuck waiting while the chambers catch up". It'd be something of a finesse factor for the weapon.

I'll label the parts after I get the barrell alignment cleaned up. And I'm still not entirely happy with the rake of the stock...hrm.

[Kyraal]

Some thoughts about what I have seen so far.

So far it's pretty obvious that the Erudity weapons are going to have the most futuristic look to them. A somewhat sleek, futuristic look, I'm thinking.

I've noticed love for the retro design here, and while that is very cool indeed, we need to be careful. A futuristic wild-west twist with lever-action weapons to the Vachir is fine (hell, I'm a fan of Firefly), but if we go with that, I don't think we could go with bolt-action weapons to the Remnant. It would tip the scale towards retro too far.

A nice balanced middle-ground between the high tech Erudite and the low tech Vachir is probably the best way to go. Perhaps some heavier looking weapons than that of those two factions. The Remnant culture opens up for some really fantastic weaponry, what with names like "The Absolver" and "The Redeemer". Weapons with heavy names, which ideally should have a solid look to them.

That said, this is still a brainstorming thread.

[UGoBoy]

Have I mentioned that I'd like the Remnant's close combat blade to be a flaming sword?

That runs on compressed gasses and is designed to cut through armor plate, so it wouldn't be too silly?

Yeah :)

[GreatMazinkaiser]

I figured go with the following:
ES Knife - Laser knive or vibroblade type thing
VT Knife - Asian dagger of some sort
TR Knife - Medieval dagger

ES Officer Sword - Laser cutlass or vibrosword
VT Officer Sword - Katana or Scimitar
TR Officer Sword - long sword with a cross-shaped hilt

Flaming swords are a little OTT IHMO...

[UGoBoy]

But a laser sword isn't? ;)

[GreatMazinkaiser]

I don't really like the idea of a laser sword myself, maybe if its cutting edge was that way or something...

I dunno, vibroblade might be better.

[UGoBoy]

http://members.cox.net/qharjo/Vachir%20Lever%20action%203.jpg

Improved version. The Brolli sketches are rough, because I'm tired :P Basically, two little arms with L-shaped connectors on the end would lock around the mouth of the Brolli tube, and guide it into the connector.

[Cl2v2r]

I was just doing up a basic version of teh Remnant's L3 weapon. Based on the British Lewis, this is what we have:
(forgive the colours, 3DSMax assigns them automatically)

http://concept.onsandon.com.au/RL3-1.jpg
http://concept.onsandon.com.au/RL3-2.jpg

As you can see, it has a 'nice' end and a 'nasty' end. I'll be tweaking it heaps more, but that would be a good estimate on the rough shape. Yes, it would be a rotating barrel system.

[Cl2v2r]

Also, I think that the bolt action would be fine, but that's just me. The Vachir weapons to my mind look roughly made (not the drawings, the actual weapons they would make) with very little spit and polish. The ES' weapons look very curvy and obviously futuristic. The Remnant's weapons, well, I liked the way they were going.

Perhaps you should give us a piccie of what you think their rifle/L3 should look like. :D That way we know which way you are headed with them.

[Cl2v2r]

And having just done up a fairly basic model of UGoBoy's rifle for the Vachir:

http://concept.onsandon.com.au/Vachir/VRifle5.jpg
Some other views at http://concept.onsandon.com.au/Vachir/

[Pipedream]

quick tip for the colors -

Just basic colors, not materials - when you select object(s) there should be a little color swatch on the right side of your screen in the flyout panel. Click it to assign new ones.

Lookin good! High polycount, but these are just concepts right?

[Cogburn]

http://concept.onsandon.com.au/RL3-1.jpg
http://concept.onsandon.com.au/RL3-2.jpg


It's not exactly what I had in mind but it TOTALLY fits the bill.

Nice job, that's a keeper.

[Aftiel]

hehe Coggy, thought that would roll well for em. I need to get my scanner comp working so I can get some drawn shit to Cl2v2r so he can continue his TR L3 weapons hax.

[FlamingPotato-J]

Oooh, like a tommy gun, me likes

[UGoBoy]

I like it. It'd fit in OK with the Vachir stuff, I think. It'd also make a pretty decent Remnant gun, I'd think.

[GreatMazinkaiser]

A more finished version of my Gang Banger SMG, with multiple view angles.

http://web.utk.edu/~dhill10/http:/web.utk.edu/~dhill10/images/gangbanger.png

Hope it recieves good reviews.

[Cl2v2r]

Love the Gang Banger. ;D

The Spooge-o-meter is pretty nifty, but it might be better on the back? Swapped with teh Spooge port maybe?


I added a second handle/grip to teh beast that is the Remnant's Lev3 wep, as well as some barrels. I don't really like the barrels much, I would prefer a texture that made the barrel tips look flush with end of the spinny bit (technical I know). Any comments/suggestions?

http://concept.onsandon.com.au/Remnant/RL3-3.jpg (http://concept.onsandon.com.au)

http://concept.onsandon.com.au/Remnant/RL3-4.jpg (http://concept.onsandon.com.au)

[Aftiel]

Can you not sink them in, or at least make them shorter? I'll try and get a sketch up of the 2nd handle I was envisioning in a bit. Since you already have the rest of it covered (even the multi-barrels).

[fredthedeadhead]

Just to say, it might be a good idea to leave the clip size as being ambigious. Would be a right pain later if the clip size should be changed for balance reasons or such, but couldn't because of the model. It's not happened yet as far as I can see, but just to say.

[Cogburn]

If its on the grip... doesn't your hand cover it when you are holding the weapon?

[Cl2v2r]

I was thinking of a slightly smaller version where the spooge port is.

But, how about on top? Kinda leading the way from the spooge port to the drum?

[GreatMazinkaiser]

How about this?

http://web.utk.edu/~dhill10/http:/web.utk.edu/~dhill10/images/gbspooge.gif

[Cogburn]

LOL... from "Brolli Device" to "Spooge Port"...

This project is going to be so much fun. :P

[Cl2v2r]

I'd personally think it would be better with the red end at the back, but that's just me.

Otherwise I think it's looking good. :)

[GreatMazinkaiser]

Colouration is quite arbitrary no? But yeah, it can be swapped easily...

[reekard]

Okay, I sketched some idea's for weapons but I don't have a scanner so I will try to explain them to you guys.

My idea for a remnant L3 Cannon is alot different than the trend you guys are going with but bear with me. It's a chainsaw, wait... don't run away. It's held like real life gatling guns or miniguns, at the hip, with the left hand holding a lever to support the weight of the gun, and the right hand on a trigger. These two handles are attached to the main body of a gun, which is similar to the engine or body of a chainsaw. Inside of this body is where the ballistic material is morphed into actual bullets, and the bralli tube is inserted horizontally into the side of the body. Now, the "blade" of the gun, instead of having a chain on it, it has bullets. Imagine a chainsaw, with bullets glued to the chain so that the "butts" (part of the bullet that the hammer hit's, don't know the name) are glued to the chain on the top, not the sides. Now, the shells (which are actually part of the blade) are filled with ballistic material as the pass through the body. They are fired from the shells at the tip of the "blade", and are empty until they return to the body of the gun. So as the chain rotates along the blade, bullets are being fired and constantly remade and put in the blade. The thing that I really like about this design is, if you run out of ammo, the gun can be used as a melee weapon. It's basically a "chainsaw gun". I know descriptions are kindof hard to visualize, but I might be able to fabricate some sort of sketches or something in the future. If someone wants to make a sketch of what they think this might look like feel free.

[Aftiel]

Remnant != Brolli device. I'd suggest you re-read the Versus subsection to understand the things we've already mapped out.

[Cogburn]

I sorted that out for him in a PM. :)

[326Ben]

I took Cl2V2r's Remnant rifle and kinda made it into a Remnant sniper rifle ( hope you dont mind)

http://img45.imageshack.us/img45/923/remnantsnipe9iq.jpg

[MadCat360]

Keep in mind, designers, that most of today's militarys are finding that bullpup weapons are smaller with just as much accuracy as the larger rifles, and easy to reload/shoulder. So, it's likely that far-future forces would all have bullpup weaponry.

Good examples are the FN P90, Steyr AUG, and FA-MAS.

http://remtek.com/arms/fn/p90/data/p90b.gif

http://remtek.com/arms/steyr/aug/auga1/aug20b.gif

http://remtek.com/arms/famas/g2.gif

(P90, AUG, and FA-MAS respectively)

Just something to think about...

[luthor]

Here's something I was toying around with for the non ES auto machine pistol.* Just a sketch so far, the profile shape needs something but I can't put my finger on it.. i'm open to suggestions
http://img354.imageshack.us/img354/9517/pewpew0rz.th.jpg (http://img354.imageshack.us/my.php?image=pewpew0rz.jpg)http://img366.imageshack.us/img366/2941/pewpewtew9fl.th.jpg (http://img366.imageshack.us/my.php?image=pewpewtew9fl.jpg)http://img137.imageshack.us/img137/8319/pewpewthrew6ha3ev.jpg
a profile if anyone wants to dick around with it.
an for the love of God aftiel, this thread needs a SECOND PAGE!!!* *;D

edit: reversed the magazine, and lined up the barrel with the.. uhh ejection thing


BOLT PISTOL!