A place for infiltrator-types in this game?

[YourBestIsMyWorst]

You guys thinking about infiltrator types in this game, or any other kind of cloaking, invisible, sneaky, type of class or armor?

That kind of falls under a special class of infantry or troop, and I was curious if you had discussed it at all? Infiltrator types seem to be either hated or ignored by most non-infiltrator players, but for those that like that kind of thing, they're a blast to play.

Any thoughts to including a similar class in this effort?

- YourBestIsMyWorst

[abathur]

I'd like to see it continue in some capacity. I had some idea for a suit that makes use of camoflauge and time-rift exploitation. The basic principle being one of:

camoflauge
use a short spurt of time-rift exploitation to move point-to-point instantaneously (as far as other see you when you return to normal time.)
re-camoflauge in new location

While exploiting a rift your avatar remains where it was before you started moving.

Still just an idea I was playing with in my head though.

[Aftiel]

Quite a few ways we can take this theoretically but there definitley needs to be some kind of "sneaker" type character.

[Hawkeye]

Would it be possible to make a thing like the Spy in TFC. i loved being that class in TFC.

[Cogburn]

Just a thought.... Cloaking could be a Psionics Skill... You manipulate the minds of your enemy so they cannot see you. If you deal or take damage the effect is negated. Give it a one second warm up and cool down.

The amount of drain on Stamina could be directly related to the size of the armor being cloaked.FURTHERMORE, you could scale the warmup and cooldown time based on the size of the armor being worn as well. In fact... you could roll cloaking and sensor shield all into one....

Again... just a brainstorm.

[GreatMazinkaiser]

Would it be possible to have no stamina drain on those cloakers that eschewed armour?

And yes, I know this essentially creates the cloaker from PS, but with attacking making them visible again, it'd encourage such cloakers to be sneaky gitz instead of ninja assassins.

[Aftiel]

I think you'd still want some drain while doing anything other then not moving but have it low enough @ 0 armour that you can move fairly freely without worrying about it.

[NasyVealisanoob]

you would have to put a weapon limitation on it if you went that route. I dont think it would be to fun to have some dude materialize right behind you with a BFG or some sniper that is imposible to find.

[Cogburn]

Since its our game, there's nothing that says we can't do it like we want...* You cannot fire until you are fully decloaked, and you are detectable by sensors DURING decloak.

If you make ... say ... Spec Ops Armor and cloak it for a 1 second wa/co timer and a virtually unlimited lifespan.* THEN make cloaked Light (agile) armor ... why not give that a 10 second wa/co period and a 20 second lifespan?* Give cloaked heavy (rexo) armor a 15 second wa/co timer, but a 10 second lifespan... Give HAX a 20 second wa/co timer, with a ZERO second lifespan.* If you want that big bulky armor to walk around undetected: A) its gonna take you a while to get there and b) it's not gonna be on long once it is.* That way you FORCE it back into the realm of spec ops, but still leave it open for others to use as best they can.

The arguement here seems to be less about should it be a Psionics skill and more about how to balace it assuming it already is one.* I'm just offering up some suggestions on how that could be handled.

Not to mention, abathur's "rifting" idea can also fall within this realm... although if I read it right thats like having a short distance personal teleporter and that might need some elaboration.

P.S. wa/co = warmup/cooldown

[abathur]

Basically. You start in one location, start rifting, you remain in that location (camoflauged or not) until you break out of the rift (by time or manually) at which time you're in a new location, but are not camoflauged for that location yet. There's presumably some extent to just run around with the camo but if it's explicitly tied to your current location you're going to stick out as you move, especially in indoor environments (though if you're slick and move along a low-contrast wall and other "smart" things...) I digress. Provides specops opportunity, never makes you invincible, does have some vulnerabilities but can still be quite powerful for those who are quick thinking intelligent players with keen situational awareness...

[Mug]

how about instead of a time rift, its a different dimension. It looks similar to darklight with limited visibility and poor lighting. When a person is rifting, he can't see anyone else, and no one can see him, exept other people that are rifting. So it'd be inf's fighting inf's for the right to carry out a special op.

[Aftiel]

how about instead of a time rift, its a different dimension. It looks similar to darklight with limited visibility and poor lighting. When a person is rifting, he can't see anyone else, and no one can see him, exept other people that are rifting. So it'd be inf's fighting inf's for the right to carry out a special op.


I don't know if we can do that but fuck that'd be sweet.

[YourBestIsMyWorst]

how about instead of a time rift, its a different dimension.* *It looks similar to darklight with limited visibility and poor lighting.* When a person is rifting, he can't see anyone else, and no one can see him, exept other people that are rifting.* So it'd be inf's fighting inf's for the right to carry out a special op.


Oh hell yeah, I like that idea!

[Cogburn]

Let me reiterate to make sure I have this clear...

It's the same map.... but its like when Frodo puts on The Ring... It's some kind of parallel universe that exists in the same place and time, but characters in either realm cannot interact between realms.

This raises some interesting gameplay questions.

Do objects that are in each realm collide, or can they pass "through" eachother?

What happens when someone leaves the rift "inside" someone else? Do they both die?

Can "rifting" players see players that are not "rifted"... vise versa?

This is a nice solution to the infiltrator/cloaker implementation. Can the above issues be addressed?

[Kyraal]

Some thoughts.


Riftwalking sounds a bit loopy at first glance. Think such a technology would have been expanded upon, for use with heavier things. [On a side note, I think Controlled Rifts should perhaps be used as the Warpgates we have in PlanetSide. Controlled Wormhole technology? (Farscape(!))]
All right, I only managed one thought.. :-\

[Aftiel]

Kyraal if the rifting is psychically/psionically based then that would limit it from being applied to bigger/other things and shore up that plothole for ya.

As for the other questions I have to get back to work here shortly so I'll prbly answer those with my opinions later.

[Mug]

Let me reiterate to make sure I have this clear...

It's the same map.... but its like when Frodo puts on The Ring... It's some kind of parallel universe that exists in the same place and time, but characters in either realm cannot interact between realms.

This raises some interesting gameplay questions.

Do objects that are in each realm collide, or can they pass "through" eachother?

What happens when someone leaves the rift "inside" someone else? Do they both die?

Can "rifting" players see players that are not "rifted"... vise versa?

This is a nice solution to the infiltrator/cloaker implementation. Can the above issues be addressed?
I'd say if you tried to leave the rift, and you ended up inside someone else, you get gibbed. That way, if you wanted to infiltrate a base for example, you'd have to pick the right place to de-rift. If you wanted to infiltrate a whole squad into a base, you'd really have to be careful about where you de-rift to keep your whole squad intact.

[Aftiel]

Do objects that are in each realm collide, or can they pass "through" eachother?
You cannot rift through others because matter transcends the seperate planes. This also means you could get shot while rifting but for instance a plasma weapon would not light you up to get wtfpwned it would just damage you. This prevents the problem of so I can go through people but not walls? And the problem of rifting behind 5 people spamming a BD then pulling your JH and killing them all after you de-rift.


What happens when someone leaves the rift "inside" someone else? Do they both die?

Since you can't pass through them it just can't happen.


Can "rifting" players see players that are not "rifted"... vise versa?

Rifting players can see non-rifting players (although possibly make them shadowy or something so you can't tell every detail about em intel wise). Non-rifting players can only see non-rifting players.


This is a nice solution to the infiltrator/cloaker implementation. Can the above issues be addressed?

I think I just addressed em, feel free to rip it apart.

[Cogburn]

So the only countermeasure to this would be....?

If you become visible when you take a swing thats one thing... But I dunno.... Darklight was a good idea implemented badly, the recent "fixes" are proof. It's definately too powerful, but I think that's as a result of design.

If we do something like this, ok... but there needs to be a direct counter that doesn't make it worthless.

[Aftiel]

I thought we were saying only other rifters would be the counter? Unless you de-rift (and you can't kill anything while rifting (other then another rifter)) then anyone can see/shoot you. And you technically can shoot a rifter but since you can't see them period (i.e. not drawn) you'd have to guess or get lucky or be with a rifter on TS/whateva.

[YourBestIsMyWorst]

I agree Darklight was implemented poorly. The recent 3-point stamina drain helps somewhat, but not completely.

I wish that Darklight wouldn't reveal cloakers at all as long as they weren't moving or doing anything. If a cloaker is just standing there, not moving, and not using a tool, they shouldn't show up on Darklight. Once they start doing something, then they show up on Darklight. But there needs to be a way that cloakers can remain truly invisible if they're not doing anything.

That would reward sneaking around and being careful to not move when enemies are around.

The rifting idea just sounds damn cool. Like somebody else mentioned, when Frodo puts the ring on and is in a parallel space. I like the idea of instagibbing if you de-rift inside somebody, sounds reasonable. But I think if you're rifting, then nobody that's non-rifted can touch you, only other rifters. I don't think it would be fair for a rifter not to be able to shoot a non-rifter, but the non-rifter could shoot the rifter. Rifters should only be able to shoot other rifters, and non-rifters only able to shoot other non-rifters.

[Iceonix]

I think we should choose between what style of rifting to use: Telepathically blocking your location from others or psionically entering into an alternate plane. What we go with would explain the details.

Idea one: Psionic
Rifters telepathically block the senses of the people around them to avoid being discovered. For all intents and purposes they would still BE there but no one would be able to sense them because their brain signals are being blocked. They would still interact with the environment by taking damage, opening doors, etc. This would be closest to how infiltrators in PS are now. A counter could be "Clairvoyance (sp?)" as a Psionic so that at the cost of stamina you can detect beyond your normal senses. My only issue with this whether a blocked person can fire their weapons or not. If they couldn't they would have no real defense aginst their counter. If they could there would have to be a limitation to the weapons they could carry. I know Cog mentioned giving a soldier an overall weight class based on armor and weapons chosed. Maybe this could effect how long/well they can be rifted?

Idea Two: Frodo and the Ring
You slip into an alternate plane of existance. The phyiscal world is a little blurred but otherwise still intact to you. You can move freely but since matter is constant on all planes you can still take damage if hit. But like Afty says your are COMPLETELY invisible to everyone who is not rifting. Because it takes you a while to attune yourself between the physical and rifted world the ability has a warmup/cooldown period. While rifting/derifting you are immobile an vulnerable. The question of interacting with other things comes up again though. Could someone on the next plane interact with others on the physical plane? I think that they should at a price of visibility and it should also be restricted. Since the rifting is Psionically controlled you shouldn't be able to use anything but melee weapons. Firearms would be too taxing to your psyche to control.

Maybe they could be two different levels of the "stealth" aspect?

[Cogburn]

Ok now that's interesting. Two levels of rifting.

Let me restate the idea just to make sure that I have it clearly.

Rifting Level 1 - You become "invisible" but still able to be "touched" by other players. Firing weapons or taking damage negates this effect. You are also able to "see" other rifted players, but cannot attack them since once you fire your weapon the Rifting ends.

Rifting Level 2 - You become "invisible" but are only able to be "touched" by other players that are rifiting (Level 1 or Level 2). Firing weapons does NOT negate this effect, but only applies to other "rifted" players.

Technically speaking, Level 1 is challenging but not impossible. Level 2 is considerably more complex since each projectile must be assigned either a "rifting" or "non-rifting state" based on the state of the player who fired the projectile. Furthermore, collision detection must now include a check for "rifting state"... Did I strike a player that was rifting? Was it an L1 or L2 Rifter? Based on the previous question, should I do damage or should I continue on the trajectory?

But this idea is starting to form into something really, really cool. Don't count on Level 2 Rifting for quite some time... but damn.

Can anyone punch any holes in this?

[Stream|ine]

Wow, just wow... just sounds amazing.

About all i can add is, so why is there no traditional cloaking? Perhaps it's posible but not perfect. I've mentioned it in other posts a deployable cloak field emitter. So maybe traditional type cloak fields are immovable or when they are moved they suck assuming one could be vehicle mounted. But still good for stationary objects/hiding.