About tanks

[rav3n]

Maybe there could be a way to limit the number of tanks on the cont? Cause the last thing i want to see is another Tank zerg with no outdoor battles with MA and such

[iMartyr]

instead of certificating vehicles how about have a certain zone you can acquire them from? kind of like Battlefield, just parked in a certain area flag/base zone.

[Shiri]

Or how about NO vehicles??!?!?!??!?!?!!??!!??!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!

[TerranLegend]

Or how about NO vehicles??!?!?!??!?!?!!??!!??!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!


Yes! well maybe keeping the mossie would be cool ;D

[DIZZE]

Or how about NO vehicles??!?!?!??!?!?!!??!!??!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!

[Cl2v2r]

I like vehicles. It's just how to balance them with the infantry that's the problem.

For example, BF2:

- Easier to kill tanks with a specOps rather than the AT trooper.
- The longest time any vehicle takes to kill an infantryman is 1 sec if accurate, and thats the bloody AA vehicle.
- By the time you sit and wait for vehicles to spawn, another vehicle has come and killed you.
- Most combat in BF2 is close range, where infantry realistically should have the advantage, but don't.
- Other than tanks, just about every other vehicle dies in a single hit from any other vehicle or AT trooper.
- Vehicles are required if you want to travel more than 50m.

As for using the BF system of vehicle spawns, I think it's a bad idea. Just because some has been extremely effective in a vehicle shouldn't limit others choices in vehicles. The converse is that when an idiot takes a vehicle and destroys/dumps it almost straight away, the person who really wants to use it has to wait.

I much prefer the Tribes/PS version of choosing what vehicle/s you wish. With the Tribes version you can control the amounts of each type of vehicle, though you'd have to constantly scale it towards the population of the server/battle. A hard limit of 10 heavy tanks per cont isn't going to do squat when you have a 6v6 sort of battle.

[Cogburn]

I see two things here: a) vehicles vs infantry and b) limitation on the tank zerg.

PlanetSide makes excellent use of trees to channel vehicle combat into certain areas in an SOI. While perhaps underused, combined with the tech plant requirement tanks are a so-so issue unless an outfit decides to stuff a whole platoon into armor. But then, that's fun too... so why limit that?

I still maintain that the BEST way for infantry to kill vehicles is cover. Limit movement on steep grades and in the open field with trees. Allow for certain skills to create temporary barriers that can suck a lot of hits and give infantry SOME kind of cover in the open. Make flora PERMANENT and TALLER than the crouched soldier so they can hide.

The NEXT best way to solve the BF2-I'm-In-A-Tank-And-I-Owned-You Syndrome is scale. BF2 has a poor sense of scale of players vs vehicles. I actually went to a National Guard Armory near here (luckily they supply Ft. Campbell so they had lots of stuff to see) and looked at real military vehicles. A Humvee is about 7-8 feet tall. The .50 mounted on top extends that easily. Ever stand next to an M1A1 Abrams MBT? Its fucking HUGE. At least 12-15 feet tall. While that cannon will turn you into a fine red mist at 75m, anything closer to that and the tank cannot delevate its cannons to hit you. THAT is what BF2 lacks. Guns are mounted so low on vehicles that you can easily mow through infantry at close distance on flat terrain. Most crappy IMHO.

Most people dont complain that the weapons can't kill vehicles. The complaint is that vehicles kill too fast, too easily and in too many situations.

I like the PS idea of vehicle queues. I think that making people wait for vehicles is a GREAT idea. It limits the number on the field at one time, since in large fights in a queue of 10 the first tank off the line could be dead before the 10th one is pulled. You can backbind to bases to pull vehilces faster, but the tradeoff is the added traveltime to the frontline. MEANWHILE, you are incredibly volunerable while in the queue. You may die while waiting for your ride.

As it stands, I've been considering an XP purchase system for skills and such. This could extend to vehicles. You have a pool of XP that you have earned and may spend some to pull a tank. If you don't keep the XP flowing, that is being productive, eventually you will not be able to pull any more tanks... or do anything else for that matter.

Playtesting will tell the tale, but I think if we add some of each of the 4 above points I mentioned in varying degrees the same effect can be maintained with tweaking without it getting out of hand.

[NasyVealisanoob]

Not to mention that in BF2 you can take any control point without leaving a ground vehicle or helocopter. This makes for really shitty vehicle vs infatry ballance because there are no infatry only zones. Vehicls might be bad in PS but atleast the infatry will allways have the insides of bases and towers to fight in, vehicle free.

Best way to ballance vehicles vs infatry imo is through terrain (outdoor areas where most/all vehicles/air cant access) and infatry only zones (bases, towers, and courtyards) I also think it is important to limit vehicle camping abilities, (door camping) through good base/courtyard design.

[RebelCommander]

Screw that, I think the bases in PS are the most stragically fucked up shitholes I've ever seen. The insides are great for defense and finding cover, but the CY and entrances are ass.

Make the bases in Cities, with huge, close together skyscrapers. Someone wants to Reaver (or whatever) spam? It's gonna take a LOT of pilot skill to fire off rounds, and dodge AA without faceplanting a buidling.

[Cl2v2r]

Or maybe just have something similar to the current PS bases, but with a bunker system that extends into the base.

That way you can run from inside to the outer walls completely under cover the whole time.

Of course... it'd have to balance between ability to get out, and the abililty to stop people getting in. Maybe only one-way doors or something.

[RebelCommander]

I'd really like to see some urban combat tho. Multi-story fire-fights and whatnot.

Sorta like DAoC's Battlegrounds/Frontiers. That's one thing they've done right with that game all along. THe towers have arrow slits all the way up that can be fired from, but only for so much of an arc. Hell, Sniper's wet dream... Throw in a 10-story complex building, and have MA/Assault Rifle guys, Rocket Launcher troops, MAXes, and every other thing you can think of spamming out, it would look awesome...

And the Vehicles wouldn't nessicarily (sp, I hate that word) be nerfed in this case, it would just be more situational. Tanks and artillery peices (NOT the FAIL) could pound the side of the buildings, while troops ran past using the suppressive cover. THAT is what vehicles were meant for, not 1st-floor door camping (which even I am guilty of doing regularly).

It would also provide a big boost for our Infantry vs Vehicles debate, as they would have a considerable amount of cover to hide in. And if we tossed Jetpacks in like Cog said was a possibility, OOooh. Rooftop hopping to surround a force.


Let's just say tactics and strategy would matter a lot more than "Spam the base from afar, spam the base CY, OS OS OS OS OS OS OS OS, Spam the CY, Flood the CY, Spam the doors, Flood the doors, Spam the CC, Hack, Spam the Spawns, Flood the spawns."

[Cl2v2r]

So now we just need to figure out the buildings. ;)

I like it.

[RebelCommander]

Thanks. :) I don't really think it would be that hard... The windows on the buildings would just be open parts in the mapping, so shells could pass through. Basically, make them open doors on a tower, all in line and all the way up.

But then again, that's a simpleton's explination, as I have no experience with coding/texture mapping/graphics.

[Cl2v2r]

It'd probably end up more like the bunker systems in PS, an always open window.

Unless you want to put openable/closeable shutters on the windows to help protect against air? Of course, that might make the server have a heart attack.

[Aftiel]

It'd probably end up more like the bunker systems in PS, an always open window.

Unless you want to put openable/closeable shutters on the windows to help protect against air? Of course, that might make the server have a heart attack.


If the "open window" in PS actually worked that'd be great, but trying to get a nade in that fucking window is impossible, etc.

[Cl2v2r]

I've never tried to bounce nades in, but I've never had a problem direct firing my Punisher's nades in there.

But yeah, essentially that idea.

[nadir]

One of the things I like about PS that got me into it is that, in alot of ways, it could turned into a simulation of sorts. I like the fact that a driver just fucking drives, for the most part. It irrtates me to no end the fact that the M1A2 in BF2, the driver shoots the main cannon and coaxial. Then you here people talk about how "real" BF2 is when they are just talking out their ass.

At my old job, we had (2) SIMNET M1A1 and M2 Bradley simulators. Eventually that got reduced to one M1A1 simulator. the driver sat in his own compartment and, guess what! He drove. That is why I like PS. The fact that you need two people to operate a vanguard effectively. I love driving a Vanguard. To be effective you have to have the cert, be good at driving it, and have engy to repair. I really do thin PS did this segment of the game rather well.

[Aftiel]

Good point nadir, one that I think and hope this new game will agree with.

[nadir]

It kind of irritates me when I hear over TS things like " I drove for the past 2 hours and I want to gun something" or you drive someone around gunning for you and then you go back and they pull a lightning, knowing they have the other cert, you pull another tank and they say "Oh, I didn't realize you were going to get another tank!?" If you don't want to fucking drive a tank, get rid of the cert and be selfish some more. Meanwhile the player(s) that do this complain about Soloside. But that is a gripe more about selfish players than anything.

Teh thing about multi-person vehicles is that they do take teamwork to be effective in combat. Look how you do when you have an outfit mate on TS in a vehicle with you vs some nubkin that you pick up randomly. Rarely does that nubkin do well because there is a comms break down. When I am driving a vanguard, my job is to drive and scan for targets and threats. I sit there and call targets for the gunner constantly, just like a real tank commander would do.

[Cl2v2r]

If we had some system of driver and/or gunners being able to 'paint' targets on the fly, that'd help.

Teamwork makes this game fun, but forcing people to use a voice system just to be running well is poor. A good communication system between people in the vehicle would make a lot more people consider taking greenies as gunners.

[Aftiel]

./v = vehicle chat channel?

But really if you are gonna whine about needing TS/vent to be effective...meh

[Cl2v2r]

It's just that quick response of... 'wait wait wait, there's a nearly dead van behind us'

Normally without TS, and sometimes even with it, that van will get away from you.

Just a directional thing, similar to the BF2 command/warning system would work.

[NasyVealisanoob]

One of the things I like about PS that got me into it is that, in alot of ways, it could turned into a simulation of sorts. I like the fact that a driver just fucking drives, for the most part. It irrtates me to no end the fact that the M1A2 in BF2, the driver shoots the main cannon and coaxial. Then you here people talk about how "real" BF2 is when they are just talking out their ass.



QFT

As gay as the attack helos and blackhawks are, they still need teamwork to be effective.

[Iceonix]

I love tanks. I want tanks. The more the better. And big ones, too. We can even have bi-pedal heavy tank ROBOTS. That would be cool too.

Usually my Prowler has no problem getting ripped up by tons of different things. I don't see where you guys complain about the tank zerg. As if you planned on footzerging from base to base with your precious HA? If you are on foot you deserve to be mowed.

Which is another point. We need to have better mowing in the game.

[abathur]

*if you're in a vehicle you deserve to be disabled by 1-2 AV mines or 1-3 rounds from infantry AV.

God I hate you pretentious vehiclewhores. "I'm in this thing with wheels so I somehow DESERVE to kill you"

I'm fine with BS vehicles if you're fine with realistic infantry countermeasure effectiveness. If you aren't fine with losing a tank just as fast as you can smoke an infantry or two, can it.

[Iceonix]

*if you're in a vehicle you deserve to be disabled by 1-2 AV mines or 1-3 rounds from infantry AV.

God I hate you pretentious vehiclewhores. "I'm in this thing with wheels so I somehow DESERVE to kill you"

I'm fine with BS vehicles if you're fine with realistic infantry countermeasure effectiveness. If you aren't fine with losing a tank just as fast as you can smoke an infantry or two, can it.


If I'm not flying a Lib I'm driving a tank. Tanking is a big aspect of PS for me and I hate what BFRs have done to it. As long as the terrain allows for it people should be in vehicles whether it be tanks, buggies, or aircraft. The infantry fighting is indoors and in the terrain where the vehicles can't get. That's how I would like to see vehicle combat.

And chill out, Princess.

[abathur]

It seems to completely escape some people that people are footzerging between objectives because they actually have fun fighting on foot. Sure, it makes no sense for people to footzerg cetan to qumu. When objectives are closer, significant infantry forces should be accompanying vehicles. Vehicle combat has its place--its place is not "anywhere and everywhere that isn't indoors"

You can have your cake--having it does not require relegating infantry to heavily wooded areas (which they usually have to cross not-so-heavily wooded areas to reach) or indoors.

[Cl2v2r]

I, for one, love being in the woods as an infantryman fighting vehicles. I also like piloting my mossie through the woods to get the infantry.

I quite like the current PS balance. A mag coming across 5 or so TR with strikers? Nasty. A prowler or van cresting a hill with half a dozen lancers starting up, almost as nasty.